https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/10/31/debunking-the-creationist-myth-that-mutations-dont-produce-new-and-useful-information/, Also, his statement, “There is not one mutation ever recorded that was the result of the creation of a ‘new, improved’ gene. Found insideCompact enough to be used as a supplementary book in a science class, yet thorough enough in its coverage to be used as a core text in a class on scientific method, this text assists students in using the scientific method to design and ... If you think that theory and law have been muddled up perhaps you would be so kind as to explain just what the muddle is and how it occurred. Contingency is simply an artifact of ignorance. I challenge you to explain that, how it is done without theory of evolution. All of these are free choices on her part; none of them is coerced or forced in any way. Everything that is actual (or actually true) is possible (that is, possibly true). Genetically, not only should birds fall out as reptiles, but crocodiles should actually be more closely related to birds than they are to other reptiles. And its being yellow implies it is false that she painted the chair blue. Historically, some theologians have tried to solve the puzzle by invoking unique properties of God. More importantly, however you said, “Your ‘tree of life’ and “predictions” are imaginary constructs based on the assumption of your ideology.” The tree of life was a testable prediction. Alternatively, he could have made extremely inconsistent patterns. No, in fact under creationism, we expect the opposite to be true. 327-8). Now, that poor Mum who has been toiling away for years to install and maintain the order suddenly finds herself confronted by a clever-dick progeny who’s been to school and learned that energy spontaneously creates order. All the above presupposes that a lesser thing can create itself into a greater thing. And finally, I cannot change the past from the way it was. Moral philosophy, or the science of human nature, may be treated after two different manners; each of which has its peculiar merit, and may contribute to the entertainment, instruction, and reformation of mankind. First, that argument would only have the potential to apply to the patterns within fairly narrow taxonomic units, and it would not explain the overarching patterns. They are simple biochemical machines, that are automatically responding to their environment via simple chemical reactions. A is contingent, and B is contingent. In the latter case, both parties have the burden of proof - as the burden lies with the person who makes their respective claim. then your data and paper are going to need to be impeccable. Entropy applies to both the dissipation of energy and the “dissipation” of order. The truth of a proposition concerning your future behavior does not make that future behavior necessary. Yet the conclusions state that from the assumed truth of either of (the two contingencies) A or B, it follows that A and B are each either necessarily true or necessarily false. If a man’s wife is [already] pregnant and he says, “[God] grant that my wife bear a male child”, this is a vain prayer. (ii) When did Germany lose World War II? For example, he could have given all birds protein sequences that most closely match fishes. 2) The common man would probably accept genetic evidence as relates to DNA testing for ancestry between humans, livestock, etc. But none of my choices today is ‘forced’ or ’caused by’ my actual choices having true descriptions tomorrow. The parallels are these: in both sorts of cases it is possible to have very strong evidence; in both sorts of cases it is possible to be mistaken. Ordinary grammar beguiles us and misleads us. The more that we examine organisms’ genetic codes, the clearer it becomes that they were made by randomly modifying existing codes, rather than writing new codes from scratch. It produces a new proposition, “◊Q”, which is false. Therefore, if He knows timelessly that a person will perform such-and-such an action, then it is impossible for that person not to perform that action. Therefore, I am going to explain in simple terms what the genetic evidence is and why it is so compelling. (See, for example, “Laws of Nature.”). The latter, (2)-(2a)are false and commit the modal fallacy. In other words, if you want to say that God created our modern organisms, then you are left in the awkward position of arguing that out of an infinite range of possibilities available to him, God chose to create life in the one and only way that would be consistent with the predictions of evolution. This particular thread has gone well past the point of being worthwhile, so I won’t waste any more time on it. In a debate it is possible that there is a single claim (one party claims there is a chair, while the other party has the position there might or might not be a chair), or that there are multiple claims (one party claims there is a chair, while the other party claims there is none). Smarty has never heard of the “Law of Morphology” (which is really only entropy applied to biological systems) which says, simply, that “the more complex an organism and the more often it is reproduced, the more likely it is that something will go wrong in the process”. The fact that you did not even bother to read the whole thing makes it clear that you are interested only in confirming your existing views, rather than actually learning and seeking facts. You see, it may make intuitive sense to you to expect that all frogs would be genetically similar, even if they were specially created (more on that later), but why would genetics show that modern amphibians and modern reptiles share a common ancestor? It will sometimes happen that persons will painstakingly follow each of the steps of the preceding arguments that expose the modal fallacy in logical and epistemic determinism and still harbor lingering worries that the truth or knowledge of future contingents precludes the very possibility of free will, “Look”, they might say, “if it is already true today (Monday) that I will do Z tomorrow (Tuesday), then surely tomorrow, try as I might, I will end up doing Z. Be this as it may, there remains one common element (at least) in the case of a human being’s having knowledge and God’s having knowledge, namely what is known is true. The former set, that is (1)-(1b), are all true. For the secular version of the argument for Epistemic Determinism does not, in the slightest, require that we human beings be able to foresee all the actions and behavior of other persons. No, because science doesn’t deal with proofs, and it can’t say anything about the supernatural (if the supernatural even exists). Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion – "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – which is known as the Sagan standard. Nonsense! [quote= fallacious Man]The earth (you know, where evolution is happening) is not “left to itself” it is constantly receiving energy form the sun.[/quote]. All I am trying to do is to draw a parallel between knowledge of the past and knowledge of the future. Paul, you are equating latent heat with entropy. The magical creative powers attributed to chance are flatly contradicted by all of observed nature and its processes. (Carl Sagan). I have never denied that there some similarities in all organic life forms and some are more similar than others. They successfully evolved the flies to adapt to low oxygen environment in the very same ongoing experiment since 1980s http://www.pnas.org/content/108/6/2349 You and your mates can keep on redefining science and its parameters to suit your ideological purposes as much as you like. Found insideThis book traces the development of Laplace's research program and of his participation in the Academy of Science during the last decades of the Old Regime into the early years of the French Revolution. Scientists figured about the basic tree of life BEFORE we had our modern genetic tools. This is how science works: make observations, make a hypothesis about what those observations mean, create a testable prediction that should only come true if the hypothesis is correct, then test that prediction and reject or fail to reject that hypothesis based on the results. It also has nothing to do with evolution, because evolution only deals with what happens after life formed. That code is, however, highly redundant, and several different groups of bases can form the same amino acid (and therefore same protein). Technically, the exact percentage doesn’t matter, but what does matter is that the percent that we share with chimps is higher than the percentage that we share with any other organism. Figure 7 from Cardillo et al. We readily acknowledge these dinosaur bones as facts not fantasy but we know your guys are WAY off on your dating method and you still cling to it even though you have been proven wrong over and over again. No exceptions have ever been observed” is empirically false. Because energy must be dissipated in the establishment and maintenance, or sustaining, of an orderly system some con men with an ideology to sell will try to pretend that the energy consumed in the process creates the order. On these diagrams, vertical lines represent common ancestors. Thus, you, your sibling, and your cousins are more alike because you all received DNA from the same source (your grandparent). For example: the mere fact that there are chemical process similarities in all organisms exhibiting the phenomenon we call life is didactically sold as “proof” that mud spontaneously turns itself into microbes and Men in spite of well known, easily demonstrated, and universally observed laws of nature that declare that it does not, and cannot, happen so. Exactly what these are and what they do is still the subject of much debate, but it does appear that they are not actively coding nearly as much as regular DNA (if at all), and mutations in those regions are unlikely to have large impacts on organisms. Genetics are a test of evolution’s predictions, and it is a test that passed. Come to think of it, since the entropy of water vapour is higher than that of liquid water, if you could’t have local decreases in entropy it wouldn’t ever rain. Suppose “A wins” is (today) true. He even could have made a consistent pattern, but one that didn’t match evolution’s predictions. 2. You are ignoring this astounding and well-established pattern, ignoring the logical contradiction of cherry-picking when you want to accept genetic methods, and ignoring the fact that evolution has consistently made accurate positions. Propositions ‘become’ true when the events described occur. If thou sayest ‘He knows’, then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God’s knowledge would be imperfect.”. Let’s propose some practical examples to illustrate the process. and i’m not sure how anyone with a conscience could POSSIBLY be ok with these lines of reasoning, when one considers the absolutely staggering depth of deception involved that would ultimately result in someone being tortured for eternity. Then, they looked at the genetic data and their prediction was correct. What other way might one, then, propose to avoid the conclusion of the argument about tomorrow’s sea battle? That there is some evidence that there were plants and animals, no longer extant, that were buried in mineral rich anaerobic sludge and thus fossilised is not an indication, much less “proof” that one kind turned itself into another. Found insideAnyone with an interest in historical methods, how historical knowledge can be justified, new applications of Bayes’s Theorem, or the study of the historical Jesus will find this book to be essential reading. To propose an unsolicited and “unacceptable” alternative will most likely give the proponents of the impossible ideology the lawyer’s excuse to dismiss and ignore the whole scientific and logical argument as mere “propaganda” of the “God-botherers”. But it was, in the end, a colossal error. P is possible (symbolized “◊P”). You ideology is not based on facts and facts are irrelevant to your ideology. The party that does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption of being correct, they are presumed to be correct, until the burden shifts after presentation of evidence by the party bringing the action. etc. Semantic relations are not causal relations: Again, the English language confuses us. Found insideYou'll love this book or you'll hate it. So, you're either with us or against us. And if you're against us then you hate books. No true intellectual would hate this book. Ever decide to avoid a restaurant because of one bad meal? But in neither case does the possibility of error undermine truth. Image via Green et al. and everything in between and beyond. Certainly, of at least some events and behaviors. As I said in the post, I could substitute absolutely any explanation for “God” and it would be just as logical (or illogical as the case may be). Some persons find it easier to understand the concept of the semantic relation of ‘truth-making’ if the example concerns a past event rather than a future one. [/quote] Your own definition clearly disproved your argument. The argument (Logical Determinism) that a proposition’s being true prior to the occurrence of the event it describes logically precludes free will ultimately rests on a modal fallacy. The argument that you are saying turning “sheep into an elephant” and “grass plant into a nut tree”, “Lungfish turned itself into a reptile that turned itself into a mammal that turned itself into a dog.” proves you still do not understand genetics and evolution. Further, let’s be clear that the existence of this pattern is an undisputed fact. You’re missing the point wit the dogs, so to try to explain things a different way, please actually answer the following two questions. Here is the mechanism by which mud turns into a microbe: First there are individual atoms, eg Carbon and Hydrogen and Nitrogen. While these claims do not represent the majority, research has shown that these workers are likely to have complex health conditions and represent a substantial and disproportionately high cost to the scheme and broader society. If the Hospital deliberately failed to draw a ticket, on the scheduled date, from the pool of purchased tickets, all those who had purchased a ticket could rightly claim that the hospital had been lying (that is, had been asserting false propositions). i’ve started saying ” my soul wants to belief but my mind just won’t accept religious ideas ” . No proposition whatsoever is both true and false in the same set of circumstances (law of non-contradiction). Again that is, by definition, a prediction. Thus we have a secular counterpart of the original problem. At this point, you might be tempted to think that these genetic patterns are there by necessity. The third condition, the belief-condition, poses certain problems as well. Reblogged this on James' Ramblings and commented: I find it odd that people still question evolution. So I am being simplistic to avoid losing anyone, but the actual science is more complex, and the more that you understand it, the clearer it becomes that evolution is correct. If, however, you get a random pattern, no pattern at all, or any pattern other than exactly what you predicted, you are wrong and your idea has been falsified. As I explained in the post (as you would know if you had read the whole thing) this is not simply a matter of a pattern existing. But the beliefs of an omniscient God are unlike those of human beings. Thus: If a proposition about some future action you undertake (let’s say tomorrow) is true, then it is true now. Not surprisingly, the response is: “It all depends on what you mean by ‘change'”. As you can see in the image, they look extremely similar, and they both possess remarkable adaptations such as a large flap of skin that they can use to glide, a large bushy tail to steer with, large forward-set eyes for good night vision, etc. You see, it wasn’t enough for there to be a pattern. 50-53). The proposition that the US Congress will adopt Swedish as the country’s sole national language certainly is a logical possibility (that is, is not self-contradictory). For example, we can trace the ancestry of all humans back to a common source. I can’t speak for what Oldavid means, but I frequently hear creationists in general argue that “mutations don’t make new information, they just change existing information.” That argument is, however, a fundamental misunderstanding of how the genetic code works. You can come up with any amount of specious “examples” such as the “black skin causes crime” scenario mentioned by one of our previous contributors but it doesn’t “prove” that a microbe turned itself into a man. But, as it turns out, the situation is worse than just having to make do with awkward sentences. I reiterate that before we had genetic tools, evolution predicted that we should see exactly the pattern that we currently see, and guess what, that prediction came true, and the pattern is universally observable and easily demonstrable. And yet, God-fearing persons frequently do utter such prayers. This was a falsifiable prediction, meaning that if it did not come true, the theory of evolution would be toast, but it did! Further, many breeds have arisen over a few hundred years or even just a few decades, so if we extend that over a few million years, the possibilities are extraordinary. That reasoning is logically invalid and completely ignores the evidence. I am not attacking Christianity or religion here. My sources span 50 years or more, from High School to now. So if you are going to claim that a widely accepted scientific principle is wrong, that you found a simple cure for cancer, that vaccines are dangerous, etc. Even more serious is the fact that they leave untouched the problem posed not by God’s foreknowledge but that of any human being. Then everything is to be interpreted according to the ideology to “prove” itself. modal fallacy. You cannot evolve a species into an existing species using natural or artificial selection. ___, 817 S.E.2d 833 (2018), in which the court declined the defendant’s request to grant his petition for writ of certiorari to review the trial court’s order requiring him to enroll in lifetime SBM. As for the local formation of greater order, you need look no further than a grain of salt crystallising out when brine evaporates. Variation within species, or “kinds” of organisms. By setting the standards too high, as did Descartes and as do many of his intellectual heirs even today, is to rob the concept of “knowledge” of its utility. Beneficial mutations do in fact exist. You should give it serious consideration. Nevertheless, my point stands that both species evolved many of the same traits in different ways, and different genetic codes can achieve the same outcome. You said, “Scientism, on the other hand, begins with the assumption of the desired outcome then seeks ‘evidence’ to justify or rationalize the assumption; any contraindications are simply ridiculed, speciously ‘reinterpreted’, or disingenuously ignored.” I’m not disagreeing with you, but if you actually read the post, you will find that evolution predicted the patterns that we see decades before we could test those predictions. Thus, a string of DNA codes for a series of amino acids which in turn forms a protein. This is not to say that this proposed solution is completely without merit; but it is to say that we ought to try to find some other solution before resorting to such a major revision of logic. Indeed, by my doing what I do, I contribute – in a small measure – to making the future the very way it will be.”Similarly, I cannot change the present from the way it is. Creationism prediction failed, whereas evolution’s prediction came true. The fossil “record” records absolutely nothing except that some organisms (many that are not known to exist today) were buried in mineral rich anaerobic sludge that preserved some of their remains as fossils. One can reject the validity of the argument, in particular by arguing that although the premise-set is true, the conclusion does not follow from that premise-set. By chance, some of those atoms combine to form complex chemical compounds (eg methane). On pain of inconsistency, one cannot change what is happening at this very moment. They accept the soundness of the deterministic arguments and – giving primacy to God’s knowledge over human beings’ free will – argue that free will does not exist. if it can be proved by logic and experiment that there are no, and can be no, exceptions to the theory then it’s a Law. Yesterday there were, today there are, and tomorrow there will be, true propositions describing those choices. The supposed exercise of your free will is ultimately an illusion. There seems to be (at least) one missing premise. Sugar gliders (Petaurus breviceps) and northern flying squirrels (Glaucomys sabrinus) provide a really nice example of convergent evolution. Simply put, our knowledge of how the world has behaved up till now provides powerful evidence of how it will behave. Further, the fossil record shows the existence of a large phylogenetic group known as archosaurs, which included both ancient crocodilians and the group of dinosaurs that evolved into birds (more details at the University of California). It could just mean that it’s a good system that works as intended. So evolution predicted an incredibly precise pattern, and that pattern is exactly what we found. 1. Most persons will need to read this paper several times, and without a dismissive attitude, to plumb its cogency and depth. Thanks for the correction, Paul. The pattern you brandish is a construct out of your assumptions. That is the key here: evolution predicted a very precise pattern, which is exactly what we see. Thus, you can see that you and your sibling share a recent ancestor (your parents), and you, your sibling, and your cousins share an ancestor slightly further back (your grandparents), and all six of you share an ancestor even further back (your great grandparents). For such standards can rebound and make it impossible to know the past as well. Second, I want again reiterate that the important thing here is that evolution makes testable predictions. You bumped into a hard spot here, fella. This also leads to a prediction, if you are right, then the genetics should show the exact same pattern. (This conundrum is the handiwork of Judith Jarvis Thomson (1971).) The identical error occurs in the argument for logical determinism. B.C.E.) There are many sub-categories within that, and there are also Christians who accept both evolution and the Bible (theistic evolutionists). And it bears emphasizing that it is not God’s knowing beforehand that the parents would pray in a certain manner that ‘brings it about’ (‘necessitates’, ‘forces’) their praying that way. They said that if that tree was true, if their understanding of evolution was true, then the genetic evidence should also show that same tree, and they were right! It should be obvious that it is not up to the customer to prove a magic broom (or any product or idea) is less than advertised. The arrangement of those amino acids then determines what proteins are formed. If we are to be skeptical about the possibility of knowing any future events, we would have to be equally skeptical of our knowledge of the past. Real science says that it doesn’t happen and can’t happen. Your argument about the fruit fly experiment is misrepresented. The argument has its dreadful bite even if we are able to foresee only some of the free choices of others. Yet, I do know them. But the bullet was not yet lodged in Kennedy’s body. On that occasion, it became a matter of life and death for countless numbers of troops that their commanders correctly predicted the actions of their enemies. in the link provided in my first comment (from whyevolutionistrue) different species look very similar although they likely have different genes. I’m not sure exactly what you meant when you talked about an organisms thinking that it would be nice to have eyes, so I will go ahead and clarify that evolution is blind and does not give organisms what they need. In symbols we can express the sentence this way: About the best we can do in English is to create the following unidiomatic, extremely clumsy sentence: (1b) The compound sentence, α and not-β, is impossible (that is, is necessarily false). That compound replicates and creates proteins. Rather, we were able to infer their existence from the patterns that we saw in the DNA from the current generation. To use one of my favorite examples (which I explained in more detail in the post), evolution predicted that crocodiles should be more closely related to birds than other reptiles. All mutations are the result of a loss or deformity of genetic material. Figure 1a from vonHoldt et al. Then, then they made a testable, falsifiable prediction. In fact, Darwin himself was totally wrong about how inheritance worked (he subscribed to the “blending” hypothesis wherein the traits of two parents blended together). Just because an event is possible does not justify the inference that it is probable. However, as I predicted, (already knew from long experience) you do the old shape-shifting trick, move the goalposts, redefine terms, and avoid the issue. There is an enormous variety of sheep, cows, dogs, cats, people, etc. They laid out how they thought that life had evolved and they predicted (before looking at the genetics) that if life had evolved, the genetics must match the pattern that they laid out. To really drive this home, let’s talk more about birds for a minute, because their story is incredible. Contingent propositions are those that are true in some possible circumstances (/worlds) and are false in some possible circumstances (/worlds). https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/11/09/evolutionary-mechanisms-part-3-the-benefits-of-mutations/, False. I have never heard anyone (creationist or otherwise) deny that, and you are the one who brought up domestic breeds. In statistics, it is often denoted H0 (read “H-nought”, "H-null", "H-oh", or "H-zero"). This is a key area where you analogy falls apart. A supplement can provide nutrients either extracted from food sources or that are synthetic in order to increase the quantity of their consumption. Such persons will, therefore, examine the possibility of adopting option 2 or 3. However, what we would not expect is for that creator to make exactly the code that evolution predicted. Similar to trying to DNA sample a Swiss cheese through a kaleidoscope, blindfolded,with your hands tied behind your back. 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